Edward O’Keefe

- The man, the myth, and the women behind an iconic American president.

This week on "Firing Line."

- [Roosevelt] Are the American people fit to govern themselves, to rule themselves, to control themselves?

I believe they are.

- [Margaret] From his days as a cowboy in North Dakota's badlands, to his leadership of the Rough Riders during the Spanish-American War, President Theodore Roosevelt epitomized masculinity in his day.

- He is progressive and active, and sets out a presidency and a philosophy that changes the course of the country.

- [Margaret] Now, Edward O'Keefe, CEO of the Theodore Roosevelt Presidential Library Foundation, explores in his new book the Influence of five women who shaped America's 26th president.

- The most masculine president in the American memory is actually the product of extraordinary and unsung women.

- [Margaret] The book examines their impact on his legacy as a Republican and a progressive, a conservationist who established five national parks, and an internationalist who famously said, "Speak softly and carry a big stick."

- He is a unifying president.

Democrats, Republicans, independents can all find something to love.

- With politicians today on both sides of the aisle invoking Roosevelt's legacy, what does biographer Edward O'Keefe say now?

- [Announcer] "Firing Line with Margaret Hoover" is made possible in part by Robert Granieri, Vanessa and Henry Cornell, the Emmet Family Charitable Foundation, the Fairweather Foundation, the Tepper Foundation, Peter and Mary Kalikow, the Asness Family Foundation, the Beth and Ravenel Curry Foundation, the McKenna Family Foundation, Charles R. Schwab, the Eric and Wendy Schmidt Fund for Strategic Innovation, and by the following.

Corporate funding is provided by Stephens Inc. and by Pfizer Inc. - Edward O'Keefe, welcome to "Firing Line."

- It's a pleasure to be with you on this historic program.

- Here is a short list of American politicians who have tried to adopt Teddy Roosevelt's mantle.

President George W. Bush, President Barack Obama, Republican Senator Mitt Romney, Elizabeth Warren, the progressive senator from Massachusetts, Josh Hawley, the conservative populist senator from Missouri.

What is it about Theodore Roosevelt that attracts such different contemporary politicians to his political ethos?

- Margaret, I like to say that Theodore Roosevelt is a Rorschach test.

What you see in him says more about you than it does about him.

I mean, if you see the 1912 Bull Moose progressive, you're probably Elizabeth Warren.

If you see the, you know, trust-busting Republican who ascends to the presidency atop the American century, you might be Josh Hawley.

I mean, that's kind of the incredible thing about Theodore Roosevelt is he is a unifying president.

Democrats, Republicans, independents can all find something to love in TR.

- Is it that he had such a long public life and so many different chapters that there's something anybody can identify with?

- Well, I think, you know, he kicks open the door to the American century, and, you know, he means so much to so many people, because he's the one, you know, you have that old phrase.

Does the time define the person or does the person define the time?

Theodore Roosevelt is most definitely one of those people that defines the time.

You know, he is progressive and active and really sets out a presidency and a philosophy that changes the course of the country.

- You write, "Theodore Roosevelt was the most masculine president," and yet your book, "The Loves of Theodore Roosevelt," documents that, in fact, Theodore Roosevelt was a product of, quote, "a group of extraordinary women."

Were you surprised by what you found?

- I was stunned because it's not what I was told as a child.

I mean, "The Loves of Theodore Roosevelt" argues that the most masculine president in the American memory is actually the product of extraordinary and unsung women, and you know, when I grew up in North Dakota, I was told this myth of the self-made man, but it was really all of these incredible women around him.

His older sister Bamie, who was taking care of his child.

His younger sister Connie, who was his emotional outlet.

Mittie, Theodore's mother, who's been just completely maligned in history, has this incredible importance in his life, and then, of course, his two wives, Alice and Edith.

Alice has really been much maligned, just like Mittie in history, and so I knew the characters were in the story.

I had heard their names, but nobody had ever really looked at what they were doing at the moments of TR's greatest success and biggest set-backs.

- You call these women extraordinary women, Bamie in particular.

- Well, Bamie is this extraordinary figure in Theodore Roosevelt's life.

It's really Bamie who sees the political chess board.

She knows that her extroverted brother, who has a great deal of empathy and an ability to connect with people, needs to be in politics, and she is the Svengali.

She is the RFK.

She is the person who makes the right introductions at the right time.

She is the one who knows who he should talk to and who he should trust.

I mean, she's just this remarkable figure.

I really, truly, in the writing of "The Loves of Theodore Roosevelt," I could not find a single example where TR did not consult Bamie in some meaningful way.

- Your thesis is also buttressed by archival research and discovery that one historian writes was the greatest discovery of Theodore Roosevelt letters since his death in 1919.

- Well, there's 11 letters that were, believe it or not, locked in a safe at Sagamore Hill and hadn't been opened since 1954 that open a whole new window into TR.

Probably the best letter is from December 31st, 1861.

It's Theodore Roosevelt Sr., his father, writing to a three-year-old Theodore Roosevelt, and he actually writes on stationary that has a picture of Andrew Jackson's statue in Lafayette Square outside the White House, and he says to his son, three-year-old TR, "I have just come from a meeting with the president who governs our whole country, and I want for you to read what the statue says.

Have your mother read it to you."

'Cause he's only three.

He can't read for himself.

"Learn it by heart, and when I get home, repeat it to me."

And it says on the statue, the Federal Union, it must be preserved.

That's 1861.

The Civil War has broken out in this year.

He's just met with President Lincoln in the White House, and, of course, he's writing to the future president of the United States, his son.

Remarkable.

- But also a bit of a troll.

Right?

[Edward laughs] I mean, because his mother was very sympathetic with the Confederacy.

- Yes.

- And so it was kind of trolling his wife.

- Absolutely.

She is from the South.

I mean, she's the inspiration for Scarlett O'Hara in "Gone With The Wind."

Not entirely a compliment.

- Not flattering.

- Not a flattering statement, but she's vivacious and she's lively.

She's got this incredible personality, and so, yes, the letter reveals that they're kind of sticking it to one another during the Civil War, but what it's also showing is that Theodore Roosevelt grew up in a house divided, in a nation divided, and his parents showed him that you could disagree about the most disagreeable thing possibly imaginable, the Civil War and slavery, and still have a loving personal relationship.

It's a powerful message when you think about, you know, the politics of TR's day and our own.

- Two of the women who shaped Teddy Roosevelt's life, his first wife, Alice, and his mother, died on Valentine's Day the same year, 1884, in the same house in New York City.

How did the loss of his mother and his wife on the same day transform him?

- It absolutely shattered him.

I mean, he really, truly believed his life was over.

He held Alice in his arms until 2:30 in the morning, when his family beckoned him to the second floor.

They were gathered around Mittie and she died of typhoid fever.

Then he went back up to the third floor and held Alice for 11 hours, refusing to let her go until 1:30 in the afternoon on Valentine's Day.

She too died of kidney disease.

It just completely wrecked Theodore Roosevelt.

It altered the course of his life.

- After Alice's death, Roosevelt did reconnect with a childhood friend who became his wife, future First Lady Edith.

You write that he treated Edith as an equal.

He showed her deference that he never exhibited to his sisters or to his first wife, Alice.

What made her so unique amongst the other women in Roosevelt's life?

- That's a great question, Margaret.

Everyone universally sees Edith as a better judge of character.

- [Margaret] And whenever Theodore Roosevelt made a decision that didn't involve her, he came to regret it.

- Well, and there's two classic examples.

In 1904, on election night, he declares, "I will not stand for election in 1908."

Edith is seen to wince.

He didn't consult Bamie, he didn't consult Edith, and that was a huge mistake.

He obviously made himself a lame duck.

He was not constitutionally restricted at that time from running again, and then again in 1912, he decides to run for the Republican nomination, and all of his advisors are telling him, "This is a great idea.

Go, run.

Of course.

You'll be successful running against your handpicked successor, Taft."

It's Edith who says, "Put it out of your mind, Theodore.

You will never be president of the United States again."

Ouch, but she was right.

I mean, she could see the political dynamics better than her husband, who was president of the United States.

- You write about Roosevelt's reluctance to join William McKinley's ticket as vice president in 1900.

Ultimately, he agrees, and then, of course, six months into McKinley's term, McKinley's assassinated and Roosevelt is sentenced to the presidency.

As we head into a presidential election with the two oldest nominees in American history, what should we be thinking about when it comes to considering the significance of the choice of the vice president?

- Well, it is a consequential decision.

I mean, the decision of vice president, you know, Theodore hated being vice president.

He said it was, you know, it was- - You write about how the loves of Theodore Roosevelt actually knew he would hate being vice president.

- Oh, yeah.

Absolutely.

- As John Adams famously quipped, it's the most useless job in Washington or something.

- Theodore Roosevelt said it should be abolished.

- How should the public think about the importance of the vice presidential pick?

Is there anything history can tell us?

- History tells us that the vice president often, not often, but does become president of the United States, and voters should think about that.

- You are the president, the executive of the Theodore Roosevelt Presidential Library, which is in North Dakota.

The governor of North Dakota, Doug Burgum, who has been a guest here on "Firing Line," is considered in the top tier of vice presidential picks for Donald Trump.

You've gotten to know Governor Burgum.

With your historian's hat on, I mean, you just said Theodore Roosevelt did not like being vice president.

- No.

- Would Doug Burgum like being vice president?

- He was probably one of the only people that I think would truly enjoy the job of vice president.

Yes.

- Why is that?

- You know, in my experience working with Governor Burgum, he enjoys meeting people.

He enjoys hearing about their problems and challenges.

I think that Governor Burgum is one of those people that wouldn't mind that role.

He's unaffected because he's had enough other successes in his life that it isn't paramount to him that this is the top of the mountain.

- Let me ask you about Roosevelt in the presidency.

Roosevelt signed nearly as many executive orders as all previous presidents combined.

President Trump and President Biden have both been accused of using executive orders to overstep their authority.

There has been a critique on the right and on the left to certain degree of the expansion of presidential power in past decades.

Did Roosevelt fundamentally change the presidency and its relationship to executive power?

- Yes, undoubtedly.

I mean, I think his four favorite words were, "I so declare it."

He enjoyed the power of the presidency.

He enjoyed the debate with Congress about executive power.

The Antiquities Act, through which he achieved most of his conservation legacy, and to this day, is used to achieve, you know, set-asides for presidents.

Not necessarily how Congress intended it, but Theodore Roosevelt used executive power and understood, as Doris Kearns Goodwin has written about, the power of the bully pulpit.

I mean, he invented the news cycle.

It doesn't really exist anymore in the age of social media, but at the time, he knew that if he put out a story on a Sunday night, it would dominate the conversation on Monday morning.

You know, these were things that presidents just didn't do, and he understood that his power came from the people, his popularity amongst the populace.

and I think that that's why, when he gave up power voluntarily in 1908, Edith knew that he would never be president again, because no matter whether you were a Republican or a Democrat or an independent, people had seen Theodore Roosevelt act as a very powerful executive and did not necessarily want to give him that power again.

- You write about Roosevelt's trust-busting and his support for collective bargaining.

At one point, Bamie Roosevelt told her son that Theodore, quote, "intended to discipline the newly wealthy."

This is a man who grew up surrounded by wealth and privilege.

Where did this populous streak come from?

- Yeah.

Much like his distant cousin Franklin, he's a traitor to his class.

I mean, politics was a dirty sport in the late 1800s, right?

People from the wealthiest echelons of society did not run for public office.

I think he had this interesting kind of chemistry, this interesting DNA that had this exuberance of his mother and this pious kind of Christian belief, in to whom much is given, much is required, and it it expressed itself in the need to create a public good, to act on behalf of the people, not just himself, which was highly unusual in his time.

- Is there any echo of Roosevelt's appeal to populism that you recognize in Republicans' appeal to the working class today?

- I think I recognize a political realignment.

It's happened two or three times in our nation's history, and that feels like where we are today.

We are in the middle of a political realignment where what was a Republican when perhaps we were growing up, some of those principles and philosophies are no longer on the Republican side or vice versa, and when you're in the midst of a realignment, it is incredibly destabilizing.

It's disorienting because you can't really see it while it's happening.

History looks back and says, "Ah, right, LBJ signed the Civil Rights Act and said, 'I'm gonna lose the South-'" - For a generation.

- Exactly, right?

Ah, you know, the Republican Party comes into existence and Abraham Lincoln wins the election.

A Democrat's going to be what a Republican was, and a Republican is suddenly going to be a Republican.

You know, it was a realignment.

I have a sense that we're going to look back at this period in history and see much of the same, a political realignment in which it makes sense in retrospect, but feels very disorienting in the moment.

- Teddy Roosevelt's Harvard thesis was actually called "For Equal Rights For Women."

You call it, quote, "remarkably radical for its time."

Listen to Betty Friedan on the original "Firing Line" discussing the feminine mystique and masculinity with William F. Buckley Jr. Take a look at this.

- You see more and more men joining our movement, supporting our movement, and they seem to feel that their liberation is entailed.

Why should men die 10 years younger than women, you see?

And why should they have to live up to some stupid machismo that's obsolete when, you know, there are no bears to kill?

So, you know, to make every man say masculinity, the masculine mystique.

You know, bear-killing big muscle Ernest Hemingway would make every man to begin with feel so inadequate that then he has to defend himself, and you've got, you know, 10 strikes against him before he begins, and this is almost as bad for men as the feminine mystique was in making women suppress their strength, or never even finding it, in participation in society.

- Since Betty Friedan's Day, the pendulum has swung back again.

There are people, primarily on the right, Tucker Carlson, Josh Hawley, who bemoan what they actually call a crisis in masculinity in our culture.

You know, the argument, of course, is that young men have become too feminized.

Can you imagine what Roosevelt would make of an argument like that?

[Edward chuckles] - Well, I never like to take Theodore Roosevelt out of his time and put him in a present argument, but I do think it's a fascinating kind of commentary that Theodore Roosevelt felt like he had to find ways to be masculine.

I mean, Betty Friedan in that clip talks about Hemingway, who adored TR and modeled some of his behavior on TR.

You know, the one thing that TR didn't shoot was a bear.

Of course, that's where we get the Teddy bear from, but it's... - But other iconic masculine figures have drawn on Teddy Roosevelt's- - Oh, absolutely.

- Myth, sort of the mythology of his masculinity.

- Well, and that's what I explore in "The Loves of Theodore Roosevelt," is that, actually, there's all these incredible women in his life that he's listening to and consulting.

I mean, it's not just the women I talk about in the book.

I mean, he's a frequent correspondent with Edith Wharton.

You know, he takes an audience with Susan B. Anthony.

He exchanged letters with Ida B.

Wells.

He listened to women.

In that thesis that you referenced, he says, in 1880, women should be doctors, lawyers, judges.

They should own property.

They shouldn't necessarily take their husband's name upon marriage, and, yes, he endorses not just suffrage 40 years before the 19th Amendment, but equal pay for equal work, a concept we are still debating today.

- The Roosevelt Library, of which you're the director, has taken possession of a statue, the famous statue of Roosevelt on horseback that was flanked by a Native American man and a Black man that once stood in front of the American Museum of Natural History in New York.

It was removed in 2022 because it was deemed, quote, unquote, "problematic."

How are you navigating, as the president of this museum, what people point to as the complexities, and as you point out, the nuances of Teddy Roosevelt's legacy?

- The last speech that Theodore Roosevelt ever delivered in his life was November 2nd, 1918.

It was at Carnegie Hall in New York.

W. E. B.

Du Bois was on stage, and it was a mixed-race audience, and he spoke in front of a lot of mixed-race audiences, and he gave a full-throated defense and advocacy of equal rights between Black and white, such that many believed, had he been the Republican nominee and president in 1920, he could have stuck a knife in the heart of Jim Crow 45 years before the Civil Rights Act.

And he told the Republican Party, "You will take me as I am.

I will not compromise one position."

- So how do you respond and what is the appropriate response by the force in our politics that demands the removal of the statues, particularly in this case?

- Well, I'm gonna borrow from one of my fellow historians, John Meacham, who I think describes this exceptionally well, who says, "When you look at figures in history, you shouldn't look up to them as idols or down to them with the standards of the age that we're currently in.

You wanna look them directly in the eye.

You wanna see them for who they are and humanize, not lionize them."

And so, you know, Theodore Roosevelt actually said he didn't want any statues of himself.

He felt that they would not age well and were never representative of a person's true beliefs, because it made them bronze instead of flesh and blood.

- Yeah.

- And it loses the essence of who the person actually is.

You know, in this particular case, the equestrian statue had long been controversial.

I mean, from the moment that it was dedicated, it was controversial, and, you know, it was owned by the city of New York, and the Museum of Natural History requested that it be removed after long, many, many public conversations.

It could not be removed until there was a receiving institution, and as the Theodore Roosevelt Presidential Library, the last thing that we wanted to do is insert ourselves into a vitriolic 80-year-old debate in another state.

However, we also felt like there is a challenge to the legacy of TR and this needs to be removed according to the wishes of AMNH and the Roosevelt family, so we, right now, have the object in a safe and secure location in North Dakota.

There are no plans to have it on display at the opening of the library, because if we did, frankly, that's all anybody would talk about, but over time, in consultation with the Indigenous tribes in North Dakota and elsewhere, in consultation with Black artists, we can talk about the composition of the statue and what might be done with or around it to improve that composition, and we can add context.

- You know, there's a view, amongst those who work and who are supportive of presidential libraries, that the presidential libraries is the place where you go to see and learn the president's side of the story, and too often, those tellings have been just the president's side of the story and have not included the first ladies or the wives or the families.

How will the Theodore Roosevelt Presidential Library in the badlands in North Dakota tell the story of "The Loves of Theodore Roosevelt"?

- Well, that's a great question.

I mean, first of all, we're building this museum in the 2020s, not the 1920s, so we can humanize, not lionize, TR.

Theodore Roosevelt's legacy is well enshrined.

He does not need a presidential library in order to enshrine him in the top five presidents.

He's already there.

So then we can tell the story of the loves of Theodore Roosevelt, because it's not just about him.

It's about all the people in his life.

I mean, I think, in writing "The Loves of Theodore Roosevelt," I thought about that story I was told as a child that Theodore Roosevelt did it all himself, and I think that, you know, it's essentially a story about family, right?

Anybody who's got a brother or sisters, a wife, a husband, a colleague, a friend, a boss, a mentor, somebody who picks them up and pushes them forward when they're down, can appreciate this, and I don't think it diminishes Theodore Roosevelt to understand that he needed help too, and I think we have the very unique opportunity in the TR library to point that out and tell that story so he becomes a little bit more relatable and universal.

- Yeah.

Edward O'Keefe, thank you for joining me.

- It was great to be with you.

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